RWBY Zombie Apocalypse Part 6 : A Little Longer

Let us see the terror of heaven

I was thinking a while ago today about the way angels are consistently designed in Shin Megami Tensei vs the way the Law alignment is sort of steadily portrayed in later games. It's a weird trip but hopefully where I'm going will become clear.

Most of Shin Megami Tensei's angels actually hue fairly close to the "traditional" image of angels, as fair-looking winged humans. We see this for instance in Shin Megami Tensei's Angel.

In nearly all of the angels in the Tenshi clan:

And of course, the Four Archangels/Seraphs/Heralds. Let's just use Uriel as an example here:

There's also Haniel and Kazfiel whose designs both follow traditional Christian depictions of seraphs. We'll bring up Haniel's art here:

But then we get to Shin Megami Tensei II where we really start to see the "Biblically accurate angels" trope emerge in earnest, where we see the more human/Hellenistic-looking angels alongside some pretty eldritch entities in the Daitenshi clan. For example, Tzaphkiel:

Or how about Ophanim, which seems to be based around Ezekiel's vision of the cherubim:

And then of course there's SMT 2's Satan:

Devil Summoner and Soul Hackers can be seen as developing the inhuman aesthetic of SMT's angels as extending from the "Biblically accurate angel" trope. Let's start with the Tenshi clan in Devil Summoner:

And some of the Daitenshi:

Then Soul Hacker's Tenshi:

And Daitenshi:

With Shin Megami Tensei IV it seems that one of the guest artists, Keita Amemiya, took the inhuman direction for angel design to the nth degree in terms of his approach to demon design in general as reflecting the idea of angels and demons as artificial beings.

At this point I should get to where I'm going here. For a while, at least a decade ago, I might have favoured the idea of the angels as strictly inhuman, or even artifical, possibly to convey the externality and alienness of the repression of the order of God. Keita Amemiya seemed to really lean on that idea, though the designs were certainly rather poorly executed at least for the Four Heralds. But thinking about it, I think the older designs for the Four Seraphs appeal to me for more than just being the classic designs from SMT 1 and 2.

Even though the "Biblically accurate" design direction is very suitably weird both for SMT's context and the linking of the strange and alien to representation of dreadful aspects of divine awe, I find that the more humanlike representation of angels in the context of the Law alignment works better for what, in my mind, I prefer to see. To understand where I'm going, let's look at SMT IV and Apocalypse. Here, the Law alignment is much as it is in SMT I and II, in that it can understood in terms of a single-minded devotion to the order of God, and to the extent that the forces of Law are ruthless in their actions, willing even to wipe out all of Tokyo in order to preserve the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado. In Apocalypse, you see YHVH's "true form" as a monstrous chimera the likes of which, as I remember Eirikr noting, you would probably see as the formulaic final boss of literally any JRPG.

To my mind, it serves to very obviously signify YHVH as unambiguously evil, which, oddly for SMT, is represented as similarly unambiguously demonic. Of course it might be argued that the conceits of Sethian "Gnosticism" are also in play. I think that the opposite approach would be better. SMT IV's approach seems to tie the order of God and the atrocity that the forces of Law undertake to uphold as, all along, the manifestation of a demonic will. But the better idea for me is that all of the same atrocity is done not by monsters but by the traditional figures of light.

Every scheme to dominate the universe, and every massacre that follows to support it, every terror that befalls mankind for its perceived failure, I prefer that we see all of it under the auspice of the traditional figures of light. That would be a far more fitting adage of the inversion that SMT is known for. As Valerio Mattioli said of Rome as portrayed by Luchino Visconti, hell lies in the celestial vaults. And what better way to illustrate that then all of the violence and terror of Law being the instrument not of monstrous chimeras but of celestial form. Of a "beauty" that hides unfathomable violence within itself. And I don't want SMT to be the only place where you can find this idea. Oh no no no I think more media should play with that idea, more art should go all in on this kind of aesthetic-moral inversion.

Update: it occurred to me that I've forgotten something. I forgot to talk about SMT V.

When it comes to SMTV, we see echoes of SMTIV Apocalypse's handling of Law and the violence of order, in that it both reasserts its treatment of that as the affect of an actually demonic will and presents Abdiel's desire to reassert God's order as a plunge to towards the demonic. Hence you see the angel Abdiel transform from sort of an angelic Princess Padme in gold armour into an actual fallen angel, who even gets reclassed as the only Law-aligned member of the Fallen clan.

Not to mention her attempt to become a Nahobino resulting in a transformation into a giant demon centaur whose design seems to recall Sirene's fusion with Kaim in Devilman.

Of course, in context this is all supposed to emerge from the premise of God's death, Abdiel's denial of that death, and the resulting desperation to restore order. But, again, that desire as strictly the affect of the classically demonic to me misses the point. Yet, given the obvious resonances with Nocturne, where three of the main characters merge with their demonic sponsors, it's worth pointing to an obvious contrast: Baal Avatar.

And moreso, the fact that before you see Baal Avatar you witness Chiaki slaughter the Manikins, ramble about how the strong deserve to crush the weak, and then in a flash of light three out of the four archangels (namely Raphael, Gabriel, and Uriel) appear as her allies, which you fight.

Now there's a setting where the representatives of Social Darwinist violence and atrocity also make no bones about what guides them: the idea that they're making the world beautiful and promoting the ultimate good. Their radiant appearance is not to be understood as a deception covering up some inner demonic nature or demonomania but instead only reflects their seemingly divine conceit. It's not only that they believe they are paragons of virtue. Everything they do, they do as figures of light. And you, a monster among monsters, a cursed being in the world of demons, might oppose them and might just stop them if you choose to. It's really hard to think of anything else that has that angle. It's also somewhat concerning to think that future games might miss the mark.

The development exemplified by Abdiel's transformation into literally a fallen angel ultimately lends not only to certain ideas about the hope that there might be something "unambiguously good" about Law, but also the idea that all the bad things about it are all about concert with the demonic, which is ultimately familiar to the conceit that all of the negative aspects of Christianity are simply the manifestations of a falsification of Christianity, that the "real" blasphemers, heretics, and demons are actually just Christian fundamentalists. But I'm not interested in that idea. I'm interested in the worst that humanity has to offer being contained in its loftiest aspirations of order and in turn represented in the figures of light, because I'm interested in the idea that it is in the name of "the Good" that atrocity always manifests, and for which we cast it into a shadow of the human, in evil.

What we are striving to forget is that the worst deeds in the world are always either utterly human or surely the work of God. Nothing demonic could come close. So let us see more inversion that reflects that insight. The insight that, so far, SMT is among the few media to portray, let alone portray as brilliantly as it often has.

“you’re not alone anymore  Blake “

Persona: a... card game?

This is something I’ve been meaning to talk for quite a while. In the first Persona game, if you go to Peace Diner before heading to Mikage Hospital at the beginning of the game, you can talk to this NPC:

These three lines are all sorts of interesting because it means there’s an actual card game played with “spell cards”, which are also the name of the cards you use to create new Personas and are acquired by negotiating with demons.

Now, Megami Ibunroku Persona is set in the same universe as Shin Megami Tensei: if… as well as Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner. The former is more explicit as the game doesn’t shy from pointing out Tamaki’s experience dealing with demons. The latter is referenced once during the Snow Queen Quest and confirmed in a guidebook.

What I’m trying to say is, there’s nothing wrong with there being a card game based on demons. There have been many demon-related incidents in this ‘verse, and creating a card game means that if an incident happens the Devil Summoners can have an easier time at damage control by blaming crazy fans/publicity events, etc. What’s eye-catching is the fact that it’s called Persona.

The student who gives you this info is wearing a Karukozaka High School uniform. He obviously wasn’t around for the Hazama Incident since he doesn’t know demons are real. I can only imagine the students who didn’t transfer out wincing every time he brings that card game up.

Going back to the main topic, I shouldn’t have to mention the fact that the Megami Ibunroku Persona cast isn’t the first batch of Persona-users to exist. The card game was probably made by one of those older Persona-users for the same reasons I speculated before, maybe with the help of Devil Summoners.

Extra:

RWBY Zombie Apocalypse AU : Ch 11 Previous| Read from the beginning   A/N : This comic will be on a hiatus for now. Working on it is not as exciting as before (unfortunately) and I feel it’s not going where I want it to be . So am gonna step back and organize my thoughts for it and hopefully it’ll be back better than before. thank you all for sticking with it so far.

Part 1 I Part 2 I Part 3 I Part 4 |  Part 5 | Part 6

RWBY Zombie Apocalypse Part 4

Zombie AU Part 2 

“ it wasn’t supposed to be like this, we were leaving to a better place. we were packing our supplies the previous day …. and the next day I killed him, I killed my uncle.

I wonder if ruby hates me? I don’t blame her, I hate myself too.  

still I don’t care whose blood I get on my hands as long as my little sister is fine” Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 |Part 4 |Part 5 | Part 6

Sharess was originally a good aspect of Shar *and* Lolth?

...and perhaps the fragment of remaining goodness from both evil goddesses, with all three being possibly originally the same entity? (At least in late 1st and early 2nd edition AD&D lore)

Depictions (from left to right) of Shar, Sharess and Lolth, from 2003's Faiths and Pantheons

It might be a bit obscure, but rather than Bast merging with/absorbing the goddesses Felidae and Zandilar the Dancer; Sharess was originally intended to be a Chaotic Good aspect of Shar, as seen in her very first description in the original 1987 "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting": "Sharess, a CG aspect of Shar worshipped in Calimshan, Waterdeep, and by idle rich or decadents all over the Realms. Sharess is a goddess of lust, free love, and sensual fulfillment, and is worshipped in prolonged fests with scented baths, music, good food, dancing, and other gratifications."

This when asking one of the writers/editors, Matt Sernett about this, he confirmed that Sharess was actually meant to be a benevolent aspect of Shar, and this not being a misdirection as presented later in lore.

This was basically repeated in 1988's "Empires of the Sands", as well as in the 1993 2nd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, though the latter further suggesting Sharess' benevolent nature might be an act, or that Sharess became a separate being from Shar by this point: "The true nature and identity of Sharess is unrevealed. She may he a direct part of the evil Shar, preparing her following for despair and loss. Or she may be a new thing entirely: a goddess of excess."

This starts to become even more interesting with 1991's "Drow of the Underdark", in the section with the short dictionary of Drow language. There "valsharess" is explained as meaning "Queen", and "Quarvalsharess" "(the) Goddess" in Drow language, specifically and only meaning Lolth (other goddesses are are written as quar'valsharess, and not starting with a capital letter).

The same sourcebook, details the syncretic She-Spider cult - who seemingly consider Lolth and Shar to be the same goddess. The cult was opposed by both goddesses, which is curious, seeing Shar's eagerness to subsume other deities. Though Lolth did latter possibly send her priestess (Malabeth Tr'rudena) to infiltrate the cult.

A card from TSR's Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Trading Cards, depicting Malabeth.

This is a proof (along with the mention Shar worship is relatively popular among Drow), of such syncretic cults between the two goddesses existing, as well as one of the hints Shar and Lolth are or were to a degree aspects of each other. Similarly how Sehanine Moonbow in both 2nd edition and 4th edition, was stated to be aspect of Shar's sister, Selûne, most notably first in the above mentioned 2nd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting: "Sehanine: Sehanine is an intermediate power among the elves of the Realms, for they refer to her as an elven version of Selûne, the mortal goddess of the moon."

Indeed, Sharess herself might had been a hint at the connection between Lolth and Shar.

There appeared more hints overtime, like similar antagonism between the 2 pairs, Shar and Lolth becoming both connected to the New Moon, and even more in late 3.5 edition and 4th edition/Nerath lore. For example, it was stated at the very end of 3.5th edition that the god Mask is Shar's son, mirroring Vhaeraun being the son of Lolth. The two gods are very similar, both being gods of thievery connected to shadows, as well as Vhaeraun being called the "Masked Lord", "Masked Mage", "Masked God of the Night". Furthermore, both gods share near identical titles - Vhaeraun being called the "Lord of Shadow" and "Shadow Lord"; Mask being known as the "Lord of Shadows" and "Shadowlord". Both having a similar to near identical symbols. With there being theories, and hints before this reveal, Mask and Vhaeraun might be connected, maybe even aspects of each other, Mask even kinda hinting in one novel (1998's "Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad" by Troy Denning) he is the same as Vhaeraun.

Symbols of Vhaeraun (left, from 1998's "Demihuman Deities") and Mask (right, from 1996's "Faiths and Avatars")

Pictures of Vhaeraun battling his son, Selvetarm (left, from 2004's "Player's Guide to Faerun"), and of Mask (right, from 2003's "Faiths and Pantheons") On Nerath, in turn Lolth and Sehanine are described as sisters, like Shar and Selûne are. So the (at least initial) opposition to the She-Spider cult from both, being possibly from not wanting for their connection to be revealed; or alternately be merged back by the power of belief.

Though to be clear, this could work either way if Shar and Lolth are or were aspects of each other, or not. As Sharess, in her original lore, possibly sprung into existence from the worship of the syncreticism of Shar and Lolth, that arose among drow, and then spread to other races/species, possibly originally named "Quarvalsharess"; before the name became shortened/corrupted among non-drow into just "Sharess". Or even started out named already Sharess among even drow, shortening from Quarvalsharess, to emphasize the "Shar" part.

It's probable Shar at least had more control over the Sharess aspect than Lolth (seeing Sharess was directly stated to be connected to her), and possibly the new goddess, in part absorbing or mirroring whatever benevolent aspects the two goddesses had, became an independent being. This quite probably being at least in part also caused by "Time of Troubles", when gods were forced into singular avatars, this event would have cut-off Sharess from both Shar and Lolth. Especially seeing the possibility of Sharess being an independent entity, was first mentioned not long after the Time of Troubles (ie when 2nd edition Forgotten Realms setting was set).

Depiction of Sharess, from 1995's Polyhedron #109

Soon though, Sharess was given a different origin (first in 1995's “Forgotten Deities: Sharess” in Polyhedron #109, then further developed with some changes in 1997's "Powers and Pantheons" and 1998's "Demihuman Deities") , if still being connected to Shar, and (more indirectly) to drow, and being an amalgamation of aspects of multiple goddesses (but different ones); it's still though an interesting possibility/alternate origin for home campaigns.

Or perhaps even theorizing some part of Shar or even Lolth did get into the divine merger that was Sharess. ("Was", as in 5th edition lore, Sharess was basically split back into Bast and Zandilar).

RWBY Zombie Apocalypse AU : Ch 10    Previous| Read from the beginning | next

Can we all acknowledge there’s something wrong with Flynn?!😰

Remember this is the narrator saying this by the way😅.

He just casually gets buffed not from god energy like Nanashi but from emotions.

Flynn literally went from not being able to perceive a higher dimensional being in front of him to being able to perceive them then literally kills them. Do you know how absurd of a power jump Flynn literally just had by standing there?! That’s at least by a whole dimensional tier. Flynn’s power jump in these few moments is like the difference between kid Goku and Goku after he did the god ritual.

This is an ability Krishna seems to gain after fusing with Flynn by the way.

Simmer down there, Zamatsu🤣. But yeah again his emotions are still buffing him while fused.

Also what the heck happened when he beat Demiurge?! After beating him he got some sort of buff. Did he absorb his essence?! Is he pulling a Doomslayer?!

In conclusion, Flynn’s genes were always cracked before the demon gene retcon. Flynn must be some sort of eldritch being that just freaking casually jumps whole dimensional tiers and literally gets a whole buff to his stats and sometimes recovers from just emotions😥! Baal’s fear of Flynn is freaking justified!!! (But, yeah seriously what the heck is Flynn?! I’m concerned). Also why many people who call Flynn weak are laughably wrong(they just think he’s a dude with a sword seriously they are naive fools😂). This guy is a freaking monster.